Can We Construct a Shared Homeland for Israelis And Palestinians?

Jon Wiener: We wish to look past the every day information of Israel’s destruction of Gaza and speak about a political resolution that may convey actual equality and justice to Palestinians in addition to Israelis. It’s been clear from the start of this struggle that Netanyahu had no aim past what he known as “full victory over Hamas.” However what ought to occur after the struggle? The US coverage for many years has been to help a two-state resolution. However right this moment that appears problematic or out of date.

Might Pundak: The truth is so, so, so bleak right this moment. The struggle on Gaza, and on the Palestinian individuals properly past Gaza, within the West Financial institution, and in East Jerusalem, and inside Israel itself, is steady and persevering with. And youngsters are ravenous right this moment in Gaza. In a approach, it’s honest to say that we’re all complicit on this. I believe it’s necessary to begin there, and never make this a dialog that’s on one other, greater stage that’s disconnected from the place we’re. However I truthfully consider {that a} political imaginative and prescient and a political horizon is usually a mechanism to finish this struggle quicker.

JW: What are the most important issues now with the thought of two states?

MP: I nonetheless assume that there ought to be two states for 2 individuals. Palestinians have by no means had the proper to self-determination. Individuals right this moment deal with the thought of full partition and separation and even segregation between these two states. However at this level, it’s inconceivable, and likewise undesirable, to undertake the precept of segregation. What we’re providing is to maneuver past that paradigm, in the direction of two states with very tight cooperation and collaboration. The interdependency between Israelis and Palestinians and between Israel and the longer term Palestinian state is so deep that making an attempt to untangle it as a way to attain full partition—that’s the greatest mistake.

JW: The concept of a homeland is central to your proposal.

MP: Each Israelis and Palestinians have a really sturdy attachment to this homeland. There’s nothing we are able to do about that. Palestinians will eternally see Jaffa and Haifa and Akko and Lod as a part of Palestine. Palestine is Palestine. And for Israel or Eretz Yisrael, and I believe evidently, even with this terrible authorities that should go, Hebron will all the time be a part of Eretz Yisrael. That is simply the truth.

And the subsequent stage is emotional. The feelings main this battle are great. If we don’t give reply to those feelings, if we expect that we are able to leap over them simply by chopping up and dividing this land with a blue line or a inexperienced line, it’s not going to work. You need to tackle the sentiment of the individuals, in any other case it’s going to management us eternally.

JW: How do you plan to alter these realities?

MP: A shared homeland is a technique to break the binary within the zero-sum sport. Usually, when you concentrate on this concept, we are saying, “OK, Israel right here, Palestine there. We divide it, we construct an enormous wall.” However what if we problem that assumption? What if the homeland is shared, however inside that homeland, which is already shared sentimentally, which is already shared in some ways bodily and virtually and materially, what if there are two nations, two separate, impartial, sovereign states inside this one land? We suggest one land with residents of two separate states, with the aim of freedom of residency and freedom of motion for all.

JW: Two impartial states that share one homeland. Is there something like what you’re proposing, wherever on this planet?

MP: Sure and no. Israelis and Palestinians, and far of the remainder of the world, are satisfied that the Israeli-Palestinian battle can by no means be solved. However more durable and extra difficult conflicts have been solved. That’s the start line. Have a look at the European Union and take into consideration the historical past of France and Germany prior to now 300 years—that may be a good instance that pushes our political creativeness.

JW: Germany invaded France in 1870, in 1914, and in 1940. 3 times in 150 years. They killed thousands and thousands of one another in these wars.

MP: Should you would have stated to a German particular person in 1960 that his granddaughter would dwell in Paris and examine in Paris, that may have appeared insane. Should you would have informed somebody that the borders between Germany and France could be open, individuals would have thought you had been loopy. However even France and Germany obtained to an settlement, an understanding that their shared pursuits had been bigger than their variations, and that they didn’t must compromise their separate identities to create a extra sustainable future for everybody. Germans can dwell and work in France, however they nonetheless vote for the German parliament as a result of they’re residents of Germany. That’s the gist of what we suggest for Israel and Palestine.

However there’s one large distinction: The concept of a shared homeland is exclusive.

JW: Palestine can also be the homeland for six million refugees from 1948 who now dwell in Jordan or Syria or in Gaza. What do you envision as their place on this future confederation?

MP: That’s one of many hardest and most necessary factors. The acknowledgement of the proper of return for Palestinian refugees is an important element of any future settlement. There’s a whole lot of issues we have to be taught from October seventh, however that is among the most necessary. This battle wants to finish. It’s not going to be shrunk or managed or normalized. What we provide is that Palestinian refugees would be capable of return to Palestine, to the Palestinian state, and grow to be Palestinian residents. Nothing so new about this. And naturally it should occur thoughtfully and progressively and with all the safety measures wanted.

Within the second stage, once more studying from Germany and France and from the European Union, we see a way forward for freedom of motion in addition to freedom of residency. Once more, slowly, progressively, all of the mechanisms of security and safety wanted.

However that signifies that for a lot of of those Palestinian refugees, whose authentic house isn’t Ramallah or Al-Bireh, it’s Jaffa or Haifa or Akko, inside Israel—they are going to be capable of reside in Israel, to be everlasting residents in Israel however residents of Palestine. So we differentiate between citizenship and residency. Palestinians will vote for the Palestinian parliament.

And right here it’s necessary to state one other precept of A Land for All, which is we aren’t making an attempt to unravel one injustice and rectify one injustice by creating one other. So these individuals would be capable of reside in Jaffa and can get the compensation and what they want as a way to reside there, however they won’t be kicking anybody out of their house. We won’t take Israeli Jews out of their properties in Jaffa and provides that house again to Palestinians. We all know that that’s removed from final justice, however proper now we’re taken with essentially the most justice we are able to get, and essentially the most peace we are able to get.

JW: And compensation may contribute to this.

MP: After all. One of many necessary issues about refugees, and we all know this from in every single place, is the thought of acknowledgement, in the beginning. This can be a collective and particular person proper. Acknowledgment goes a great distance.

JW: A query popping out of the final six months—is there a spot for Hamas on the Palestinian aspect of this confederation? Would they be a official political group within the Palestinian state? Who would determine?

MP: This can be a query for Palestinians and never for me.

JW: I agree.

MP: What we need is a viable Palestinian state. A viable, protected Palestinian state is the very best insurance coverage for a viable, protected Israeli state. And due to this fact, what’s most necessary is to permit the Palestinians now to have a regime that they respect and see as their very own, and that may lead them in the direction of elections within the subsequent couple of years. And in these elections, we should see who’s voted in. That’s democracy.

And let me inform you, I don’t imply to match, however are we asking questions on Ben-Gvir and Smotrich in our Israeli authorities proper now?

JW: You’re talking right here of Itimar Ben-Gvir, the nationwide safety minister in Netanyahu’s cupboard, who’s an open neo-fascist, together with Netanyahu’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, additionally a neo-fascist.

MP: Is the US or Palestine telling us, sorry, these individuals who have been accused, a few of them, a few of them have been accused of terrorism, and so they’re ministers accountable for safety and of each Palestinian from the river to the ocean right this moment—are we asking questions on Israel’s democracy? We need a Palestinian sovereign sturdy state each in democracy and within the acceptance of the individuals. That’s crucial factor.

I’ll say one factor. I misplaced some shut and expensive individuals on October seventh, and I don’t see Hamas as my accomplice. But when a Sinn Fein member is usually a minister in Northern Eire, assume past what we now really feel so strongly. We should always perceive that the world strikes quick. We should always think twice the place our crimson traces are. No terrorism or violence ought to be permitted. And once more, there’s a protracted future forward of us.

However the greatest risk to Israeli safety is the continued occupation and ongoing battle. If we’re capable of resolve that risk, we take away the ability that Hamas has. We give individuals hope, we give individuals imaginative and prescient, we give individuals an understanding that appearing in a political realm is significantly better than a army one. I believe that’s crucial message right this moment.

JW: What about Jerusalem? All people needs Jerusalem.

MP: Yeah. That’s precisely the start line. We all the time say at A Land for All that all the pieces is feasible. As somebody who lives in Jerusalem and has discovered a little bit bit about how Jerusalem has functioned in recent times, I don’t assume it makes any sense to divide Jerusalem into two. I don’t assume we are able to construct an enormous wall any extra throughout Jerusalem and say, “This aspect is for Palestinians. That is for Israelis.” I don’t assume that is sensible for town itself, but additionally it doesn’t make sense by way of the sentiment of the individuals. Jerusalem is one, and I believe that’s one of many issues that’s so lovely about it, that it holds all the pieces collectively. So our start line is that Jerusalem might be a shared metropolis.

There are a whole lot of fashions for shared cities that we are able to be taught from. I don’t assume that might be our greatest problem. And perhaps there could be a possible border, a porous border that we may shut if we wanted to. However Jerusalem is so built-in at this level, that to divide and separate Jerusalem could be practically suicidal for West Jerusalem. Jerusalem in a approach is the guts of this battle and due to this fact additionally must be the instance of easy methods to transfer past partition and separation and segregation.

JW: You talked about the phrase “interdependency.” Earlier than this struggle began, a whole bunch of hundreds of Palestinians from the West Financial institution and Gaza labored in Israel. Not simply in building, but additionally in healthcare and all types of different issues. What else is concerned with interdependency sooner or later you plan?

MP: What we’re providing at A Land for All is to be dedicated to this actuality of interdependency and to be very sensible and pragmatic about it—and never simply economically. Covid doesn’t cease on the checkpoint. We have to take care of pandemics thoughtfully and sustainably. That can’t occur by way of segregation. Water is aware of no borders. The water in Ramallah will get to Tel Aviv, it’s the identical water. It’s the identical soil, it’s the identical local weather, it’s the identical air air pollution. And we all the time speak about an unimaginable group known as EcoPeace that was doing essential work—they studied the sewage in Gaza that goes into the Mediterranean Sea, and located that after sooner or later it will get to Ashkelon, and after two days it will get to Tel Aviv.

I’ll offer you one final instance of interdependency simply to push it even additional: safety. On October seventh, the place the place we’ve had essentially the most segregation, 16 years of siege, segregating Palestinians and placing them behind a wall and forgetting about them and considering that that’s the way in which we’ll resolve the Palestinian drawback—properly, guess what? That’s the place essentially the most horrific violence got here from.

And we all the time say that 2 million Palestinians who’re the siblings of those people in Gaza dwell within Israel, and they’re our docs and our colleagues.

For 20 years earlier than October seventh, the safety that I’ve had as an Israeli Jew has been in some ways because of the cooperation between the IDF and the PA, the Palestinian Authority. That cooperation is what has stored us alive. Cooperation needs to be the mechanism to make sure a sustainable future, and we be taught this from each different place around the globe. We’ve got to create shared establishments that may convey equality and justice and peace. And we’ve to make sure that we deal with these challenges collectively.

JW: The 700,000 Israeli Jews who’ve moved into settlements on the West Financial institution and in East Jerusalem have been one of many greatest obstacles to peace. Their objective has been to forestall the creation of a Palestinian state on the West Financial institution. However your resolution for them is fairly easy. They don’t have to go away.

MP: Yeah, however it’s not that straightforward. I believe, once more, what we’re making an attempt right here is 2 issues. What we provide is, one, not letting the settlers management our lives anymore. So initially, settlements are unlawful. Occupation wants to finish. Superiority wants to finish. Individuals who don’t settle for the sovereign Palestinian state should depart. No query about that. Human rights should not be within the arms of the IDF. We have to have a human rights court docket that’s joint and possibly with a global facet of it as properly.

However the concept Jews on the whole would be capable of dwell in Palestine as everlasting residents—once more, everlasting residents, not residents—that concept isn’t insane in any respect.

There could be compensation for Israelis shifting again contained in the inexperienced line, into Israel. That’s lots of people, as a result of a lot of the settlers are financial settlers that had been despatched to Palestine by all of our governments, left and proper, over time. So we’re already coming to a smaller quantity. However the concept some Israeli Jews would be capable of keep of their properties, and not using a system of oppression and superiority, in a Palestinian sovereign democratic state, that’s not so loopy.

JW: And be topic to Palestinian legislation, Palestinian police, Palestinian courts?

MP: After all. Take into consideration the Germans in France. It’s an necessary instance that expands our political creativeness.
However that is the second to say one thing concerning the work at A Land for All. Though I’ve been an anti-occupation activist for 20 years, I really feel very awkward, not being a Palestinian, speaking about how Palestinians don’t have an issue with Jews dwelling in Palestine. That’s not true. After all Palestinians have an issue with Jews dwelling in Palestine! We live in Palestine. All of that is Palestine for them. The 2-state resolution is already a compromise for them.

However I believe crucial factor is justice and equality sooner or later. And inside that, the mechanism that we’ve constructed at A Land for All is cocreation. These concepts have been cocreated by Israelis and Palestinians for 12 years. That’s the power of it. That’s the magic. There is perhaps 1,000,000 different concepts to easy methods to resolve these very tough points. We aren’t an unique group considering that we’ve all of the solutions. Under no circumstances. We perceive how difficult they’re. However what we all know is that if Israelis and Palestinians don’t analyze the issue collectively after which provide you with good concepts collectively that really signify the necessity of each individuals, then the answer won’t be sustainable and achievable and acceptable.

JW: For individuals who agree with you, what ought to they do? What can they do?

MP: At this level, the truth in Israel-Palestine is, on one hand, the worst it’s been, ever. And however, it is a historic window of alternative that we haven’t seen in lots of, a few years. So that is the time for all of us to push. We have to create a brand new widespread sense about how this battle can finish. A Land for All must grow to be the brand new factor that folks speak about. You possibly can argue with it, you may share it, you can also make artwork about it, write about it. Everybody must know that this exists. As an Israeli mom, a younger lady dwelling in Jerusalem, I can not afford one other struggle like this. We have to decide to the concept this battle wants to finish, as soon as and for all, and that that is the final struggle.