THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 36, Season 13
Sunday, May 19, 2024
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada
Location:
Ottawa Studio
Mercedes Stephenson: Secret transfers of some of Canada’s most notorious killers, warnings about prison riots, and questions about the conditions behind bars.
I’m Mercedes Stephenson. The West Block starts now.
We’re learning more details about the secretive transfer of one of Canada’s most brutal killers: Luka Magnotta. Why is the prison system so secretive and what is really going on inside? We’ll find out.
[Shots fired]
But first, the shooting of Slovakia’s prime minister highlights the increasing threat for politically charged violence worldwide.
As Ottawa scrambles to recruit more protective policing officers to keep politicians of all stripes safe, we go behind the scenes to find out what it takes to be on a VIP detail.
Politicians are targets for political violence. They always have been. But national security sources say that it’s getting much worse, with the threats becoming more common, more extreme and more difficult to defend against. And you’d only look at what happened in Slovakia last week, where the Slovak prime minister was shot to see evidence that the threat is real.
Here in Canada, you may have noticed that the prime minister, his cabinet and even leaders of the opposition have had protective policing officers around them that didn’t used to be there in those numbers or that frequency. It’s left the RCMP trying to quickly recruit and process specialized officers who could protect politicians and our democracy. The West Block got exclusive access to the RCMP training program to see what they are training to deal with.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Assignment, PPO, lead CPO.
Mercedes Stephenson: They’re aiming to be the newest recruits in a specialized unit. These men and women from across Canada are about to take their final exam to graduate as RCMP protective policing officers.
After today, they will stand in harm’s way as close protection details, charged with guarding the lives of anyone from high profile prime ministers to visiting foreign dignitaries.
Today, it’s a fictional VIP.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: You’re receiving a president of Europia. He’s going to go to a meet and greet and done all-style questions.
[Shots fired]
Mercedes Stephenson: The shooting of Slovakia’s prime minister last week was just the latest hit on a head of state.
[Background blasts]
Mercedes Stephenson: Former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, assassinated in public.
Haitian President Jovenel Moïse, shot dead by a band of mercenaries.
And, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says he’s lost count of all the assassination attempts on his life.
These recruits are guarding a fictional leader, but training for a real world where politically motivated violence is increasing.
[Cheers and applause]
Host Speaker: We have students from Algonquin College, the general public that have come here today, to ask some questions about you, your background, questions regarding Europia so we’ll open the floor.
Mercedes Stephenson: What are they practicing for here?
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: All those scenarios are really trying to get them to work critical thinking with a little bit of a realistic set up and like a little bit of the real life pressure of the work. They’re navigating the grey zone of what to do, how to manage the yard, doing the job without being in the way.
Shawn from Audience: What’s your number one export?
VIP: We have lots of exports but I would say the number one would be perfume.
[Applause]
Plain Shirt Guy: I’m Mahesh. Hi. Do you remember me?
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: We’ll see with this scenario things will get a little bit more tense so communication amongst the team and how they’re going to diffuse the situation. [Applause] And then after that, we’re pausing the scenario. We’re having a debrief.
Plain Shirt Guy: Seven months ago, there was a Nazi party that did a march right through residence, through all of our students. Tell me about that and how do you support that?
VIP: I do not support it at all.
Plain Shirt Guy: You do not support it at all?
VIP: Absolutely not, no. Okay. Great. Great. Is there another question?
Plain Shirt Guy: So no, no. Did everybody hear that? That he did not support it? Okay. I’m going to send you guys to a Twitter feed where you were involved in it.
[Detail starts moving in]
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: There’s other people that…
Plain Shirt Guy: I think it’s impor…Okay. You know what? Give me 10 more seconds and I’ll…
Mercedes Stephenson: You can see here it looks like they’re getting a little bit concerned that this person might be a threat versus just embarrassing.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Correct. Correct, which is probably a point that we will have to debrief with them, right? It’s a learning opportunity for them and…
Mercedes Stephenson: How do you, how do you determine that you’re in the field because it’s really tough?
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: It is, it is a delicate balance and again, it’s a—I think a lot of it has to do with the positioning so that we’re in a good, you know, cutting the lines between that person and the VIP, or being a position where we can intervene fast if we need to get there. But it’s a delicate balance because yes, all your instinct as a police officer and as a sometimes you want it to be things and you[‘ve] got to learn to be patient and find that path. Yeah, it’s a…
Mercedes Stephenson: It’s a tough job.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: It is a tricky, a tricky one.
Plain Shirt Guy: No. Okay. Yeah. So now your goon squad is coming over to deal with me. Did—you set this event up, correct? You want your face to be out—you want this to be out there and be known, right?
VIP: Absolutely.
Plain Shirt Guy: Then take…please take my question. Will you take my question? This is freedom of speech. Freedom of speech.
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: Someone else has a question.
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: Sir, we have other people who can’t speak up.
Plain Shirt Guy: So the pep rally, the pep rally, 25 years ago….
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: I’m sorry, sir. Sir, enough.
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: I’m drawing the line.
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: Sir, enough. Come with us.
Plain Shirt Guy: For what? This is freedom of speech. He said he will listen to me.
Detail with Plain Shirt Guy: Sir…
[End of scenario]
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Scenario over.
Mercedes Stephenson: Back to the classroom for a debrief.
RCMP Trainee: As soon as we got to the stage, we merged on the sides. VIP went on the stage and we took all four corners of the room, link[ed] up with the site people, and that’s about it.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Alright. And then what started to happen then after that?
RCMP Trainee: After that, from our perspective from the site security aspect, people started asking questions. There’s no flow, like in and out. It was very minimal on our end and then people will start asking questions to Mahesh and from there, I think somebody started asking multiple questions not wanting to let go of the mic.
RCMP Trainee: Initially, I did have a conversation with the individual. I said alright, enough. And then Mark also started to interject as well.
Plain Shirt Guy: Why are you removing me? Why are you removing me?
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: What happens for you as a site commander when you get down and in?
RCMP Trainee: It takes me away.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: That’s it, right? So as the site commander, you want to, you want to remain one step back so that you can maintain—right—the full awareness of what’s going on. So good, better, best, right? That was good. Better or best would have been to maybe grab somebody else to go deal with it.
[Detail guy walking reporter back] Sir, go behind the line.
Mercedes Stephenson: Their next test may be more of a challenge.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit [listening to radio]: We want the site to be green and clear. There’s tons more. It doesn’t look like he’s listening. We’ve tried many times.
Mercedes Stephenson: As those outside try to deal with hostile media.
Detail: Everybody can have their shot, but I will ask everybody if they could stay behind.
Fake Reporter: But he’s here. He’s here.
Detail: Yes. Everybody’s going to go together.
Fake Reporter: Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah, we’re part of the press. We were given, we were given access.
Fake Reporter: Same as, same as…
Fake Reporter: Well when he goes, I go. Okay.
Detail: Just pay attention to me, two seconds.
Detail: He’s coming soon. He’s coming soon.
Fake Reporter: I’m going to go there, too. If he’s going there, I’m going there.
Fake Reporter: Live at the Museum of Nature.
Detail: Hold off.
Detail: If you guys don’t move, we’ll have to stop. If you guys don’t move…
Detail: Hey, hey…
Fake Reporter: No touching! No touching!
[Crowd noise escalating]
Fake Reporter: Get your hand…he has a right! Freedom of press guys, come on.
Fake Reporter: Am I under arrest? Am I under arrest?
Fake Reporter: Are you under arrest? What happened?
Detail [holding camera guy in corner]: You’re under arrest now for obstruction. I asked you…
Fake Reporter: What happened?
Fake Reporter: [Yelling] What? Under arrest?!
Detail: It’s an assault. It’s an assault.
Fake Reporter: It’s a free country!
[Crowd noise escalating]
Fake Reporter: I am now live on TV being arrested. This is really awkward.
Detail: Everybody back up please. Go back to the media again.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Take a breather, calm and collected makes for a smart decision. Okay?
[Waiting for the arrival of Mercedes]
Detail: Here she comes! Let’s go.
[Applause]
Mercedes Stephenson: The site now secure, I’m ushered in as the VIP, surrounded by officers on their final test.
Host: Wow, thank you for the great applause. Thanks. It’s my pleasure announcing I’m hosting Mercedes Stephenson from Global Television and also host of The West Block to be here with us today. If you have a question for Mercedes, please stand up.
Fake Reporter: Yeah. Just wanted to say hi. Thank you. [Blows a kiss]
Host: Thank you very much, sir.
Hostile Guy: I have a question, too. Are you proud of what you do? Are you proud of your work? Do you have any consideration when you do reports like this of consequences that result from your reports?
Mercedes Stephenson as Scenario VIP: Absolutely. We think about that every time.
Hostile Guy: Do you really? Really?
Mercedes Stephenson as Scenario VIP: Yes sir, we do.
Hostile Guy: Do you think you—do you think the rest of us are stupid? What do I tell my co-worker and myself? What do you tell Denis?
Fake Reporter: Go sit down.
Hostile Guy: You shut your mouth for a second. You had your chance. This is my chance right now. Fifteen years! Fifteen years of work. That little piece you did on companies that send…
Fake Reporter: Who cares?
Hostile Guy: …companies that send light armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia, now I lost my job. I can’t…
Detail: We have other people that want to…
Hostile Guy: …pay my mortgage now. I lose…what do I tell my kids? What do I tell the rest of my co-workers? Right? Ten years in the military, I get injured on duty. I get myself a job and this is what I get for work and now I get nothing.
[Crowd booing]
Hostile Guy: Nothing because of people like you. That’s enough! Enough of that crap that you pacific wolf frickin states BLEEPED OUT.
Don’t frickin touch me! Just get your fucking hands off me. Here.
[Applause and cheers]
Host: You okay?
Mercedes Stephenson: Yeah. Totally.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Alright. [Chuckles]
Mercedes Stephenson: I—we get that in real life, too, [Chuckles] minus the protective detail.
[Audience guy shakes Mercedes’ hand] Good job.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: All right guys, so what was the big—the difference on that one?
RCMP trainee: He seemed pretty aggressive.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Yeah, pretty aggressive. What else was also different when we compare it to the other one?
RCMP Trainee: He was closing off.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Yeah, right? He was closing the distance.
RCMP Trainee: Sweet line between like his opinion and then his emotion in there and that now like the reaction time becomes really too close for anything to happen. So…
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Yeah.
RCMP Trainee: …personally from—I didn’t intervene. Like I was on the sidelines, but I think it was that perfect gap. When you start crowding, you’re like just ahead of the crowd, then I think that became like that too much of a gap.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Where would have been that line then for you? You said the edge of the crowd?
RCMP Trainee: Yeah. At the first row where it kind of happened.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Yeah, that first row.
RCMP Trainee: Mm-hmm.
Dominic Piché, RCMP National Close Protection Training Unit: Yeah. And I would agree with you. I think that right as soon as he’s starting to creep closer and closer, then the risks are increasing. Even if you’re right in front of that person, if things escalate and it gets physical, the VIP is sitting right behind so good action. I wish I’d seen it a little sooner.
RCMP Trainee: Mercedes, hi. How did you feel through the scenario?
Mercedes Stephenson: I thought it was really well done in terms of how realistic it was. I mean, as journalists, we’re at a lot of these events, where either we get yelled at or the politicians are getting yelled at. He’s getting closer. It’s always something you’re looking out for.
Hostile Guy: Get your hands off of me.
Mercedes Stephenson: I’ve seen tons of protective details and it was very impressive.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, the case for more transparency to find out what goes on behind bars in Canada’s prisons.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Luka Magnotta and Paul Bernardo are notorious in this country. They’re high profile killers who carried out heinous and disturbing crimes. Both have been transferred from maximum security prisons to the same medium security institution, and those transfers happened in secret, triggering a public outcry.
Exclusive reporting from Global News revealed that the Correctional Services of Canada instructed their staff to keep quiet about Magnotta’s transfer, citing privacy rights of the prisoner. This news came the same week as warnings about the potential for violent riots in over packed jails.
Joining me now to talk about the correction system in Canada is Howard Sapers. He’s the former correctional investigator of Canada. Howard, nice to see you. Thank you for joining us. Prisons are often in the headlines, but it seems we rarely get access or information on what’s really going on. Can you explain to us why it is that murderers like Paul Bernardo or Luka Magnotta would be transferred to a lower security prison?
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada: So there’s a process that you go through when you’re classified in when you’re imprisoned in a federal penitentiary. And one of the, one of the things that happened is that you’re given a security classification. You could be maximum, minimum and medium, and then the law is written in such a way that that classification has to be revisited. It has to be revisited based on your length of time in custody, what you’ve done in custody, to see whether or not there has been a change. So the presumption is that people should have an opportunity to return when it’s—and often under supervision—to either serve their sentence or complete their sentence. In the case of Mr. Bernardo, for example, his security classification was reviewed more than 20 times before it was eventually reduced to medium in spite of the fact that he had actually met the requirements for medium security. But it was felt that he still presented an undue risk to himself, to others, or to the order of the institution, so he wasn’t reclassified.
Mercedes Stephenson: I think that’s where people find it galling. It’s written with the rights of the citizen in mind, but then you encounter these killers who have committed such depraved acts and there are questions about whether or not they’ve shown remorse for them. I think the secrecy is the other part of this that shocks people. In the case of Luka Magnotta, we didn’t find out until two years later that he had been transferred, and there were instructions to prison staff not to say anything. Why is there so much secrecy around these kinds of transfers? Could there not be more transparency?
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada: Right. So I want to answer that two ways, and the first is to say that I’ve been beating the drum for more transparency in corrections my whole career. And I think that correctional services across the country, including the Correctional Service of Canada could do a much better job of explaining how they do their business, educating Canadian so that they have a better sense of why decisions are made and the way that they’re made and so no argument that we should demand more transparency.
My second answer is that there are legitimate privacy rights engaged here. Just like we don’t share peoples’ private health care information, we don’t share other information about them as well, unless it’s in the public interest. And as unsatisfying as this may sound, there’s a big difference between what’s in the public interest, let’s say for their safety, and what would be something they’re just curious about.
Mercedes Stephenson: We heard the essentially watch dog for prisons give a report this week, talking about overcrowding behind bars and he warned of imminent mass violence essentially, which I think he was a shock to a lot of Canadians. He was talking about some of the conditions and the overcrowding. It’s not just federal and provincial jail. Here in Ontario, for example, they’re operating at 113 per cent capacity. Triple bunked when there’s space for two people in a cell. What are the conditions right now inside Canada’s prisons because precisely to your point, we don’t get to see in as the public?
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada: Right, exactly. Those, you know, those tall concrete walls and all that razor ribbon, they’re not just there to keep people in. They keep people out as well. Back to the transparency issue. So federal penitentiaries in Canada right now, which are the facilities operated by the Correctional Service of Canada for people sentenced to more than two years, they’re actually not terribly crowded for the most part. In fact, there’s about 2,500 empty cells right now. But it’s where there are choke points, so things like medium security prisons. They tend to be a little bit more crowded. And I think the violence that the correctional investigator was talking about is violence that comes as a result of other things that are happening in those prisons: lack of access to prison jobs, lack of access to prison programs. Frustration about lots of lockdowns because there are staff shortages and so movement is more restricted in the prison that it needs to be. And so there’s a—there’s sort of a—he was saying there could be a flashpoint coming and one of the early indicators of that flashpoint are some reported increases in some prison violence, so violence involving prisoners and violence involving prisoners and staff. So I think he was making sort of an early warning, looking at some of those issues and trends. Totally different picture, you mentioned Ontario Corrections, I think there’s 26 or 27 jails operated by the province of Ontario. They’re for people who are sentenced to less than two years and people being held on pre-trial custody. And it’s those pre-trial custody populations that are making them very crowded, not the sentence population.
Mercedes Stephenson: One of the things that we often hear in Canada is almost nobody serves their full sentence. They get out before the amount they’re sentenced to. So if you are sentenced to 10 years, you might serve eight, you might serve less. Is that a result of crowding? Is that a result of our justice system? Why is it that we’re hearing—and we tend to hear this in the headlines—when people commit a repeat offense that they had previously been sentenced and were released on parole or probation and then go on to re-offend?
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada: So in the federal system, people will be released various ways. So they’re released on something called conditional release and that could be day parole or full parole. They may also be released on what’s called statutory release, or they get out at warrant expiry. But the lessons we’ve learned about how to do good correctional practice is to blend the sentence management so that some of that sentence is served in custody behind the walls and some of that custody or some of that sentence is actually served in the community under the supervision of a parole officer. And frankly, parole success in Canada is pretty high. That’s a totally different process than what happens in a provincial jail where the law is very different and you’re subject to something called earned remission. So again, it’s a blending of your sentence. You spend time in custody and then you get released. And it’s really the degree of supervision that can be problematic. But they’re very different systems and I think that Canadians need to know that, for example, if you’re sentenced to life, you’re under sentence for life. You may spend the rest of your life behind bars. You may spend a portion of the rest of your life under the supervision of a parole officer, but you’re always under a sentence. A sentence doesn’t expire because you’ve walked out the back door of the prison.
Mercedes Stephenson: Howard Sapers, thank you so much for joining us with your knowledge about the system.
Howard Sapers, Former Correctional Investigator of Canada: My pleasure.
Mercedes Stephenson: This is the first in a series of interviews and stories The West Block will be airing this spring, taking a deep dive into crime and Canada’s criminal justice system
Up next, the political side show at Donald Trump’s criminal trial.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: And now for one last thing…
The spectacle that is Donald Trump’s trial in New York has been consuming a lot of media oxygen. Regardless of what you think of the former president, one thing is clear: he stands a decent chance of becoming the next president of the United States of America.
After Republicans initially backed away from Trump after the January 6th hearings, they now seem to be flocking back in droves, with many seeking to kiss the ring, perhaps hoping for the blessing of becoming his vice presidential candidate. When most people are faced with a criminal trial, their political allies abandon them. Perhaps with Mr. Trump, the experience of his many court cases have become so common that it has been normalized. But what isn’t normal is having active politicians in powerful positions, like the House Speaker, comment on ongoing criminal proceedings.
Mike Johnson, U.S. House Speaker: “This is the fifth week that President Trump has been in court for this sham of a trial.”
J.D. Vance, Republican Senator: “I think this trial is absolutely ridiculous. I think it’s a sham prosecution.”
Vivek Ramaswamy, Former Republican Presidential Candidate: “This is a sham.”
Rep. Bob Good, U.S. House Freedom Caucus: “This is a crooked sham trial to try to hurt the nominee who’s going to be the president of the United States.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Americans will elect their president this fall and, of course, Canada will have to work with whomever the American people choose. But this trial is one more sign that times are changing and as we know what starts in the United States usually makes its way to Canada when it comes to political zeitgeist.
That’s our show for this week. Thanks for joining us, and have a great long weekend. We’ll see you back here next Sunday.
