Kay Burley clashed angrily with a senior cabinet minister over her claims that the criminal justice system was at the point of “breakdown” when Labour came to office in July.
Shabana Mahmood rejected the Sky News presenter’s accusation that she was engaging in “hyperbole” to justify her decision to release thousands of prioners early to free up space in the country’s jails.
The on-air spat came as a further 1,000 were let out of prison before the end of their sentences – and the government enlisted a former Tory minister to help solve the crisis.
Mahmood said that on her first day in the job on July 5, England’s prison system “was on the brink of collapse” due to a lack of available jail cells.
But Burley took issue with the minister’s claim that the crisis could have led to “the total breakdown of law and order” in the country.
She said: “As the justice secretary you know that the police’s primary responsibility is to enforce the law and they would have continued to do that. So they would have continued to make arrests.”
The minister replied: “We found out after the election that police chiefs were writing to the former prime minister, Rishi Sunak, saying he had to act on the prisons crisis because they were aware that if we run out of prison places that has an impact across the whole of the criminal justice system and will impact on operational policing day to day.”
Burley hit back by saying: “Justice secretary, to say a total breakdown of law and order is hyperbole.”
Mahmood said: “No, I don’t accept that at all. If the police can’t make arrests…”
The presenter interrupted to tell her it had happened “several times in the past and there hasn’t been the complete breakdown of law and order”.
The clearly-irritated minister then said: “No, with respect Kay I won’t accept that. We have never got to the acute point of crisis I inherited when I walked into the justice department.
“We have never been in a position where there were fewer than 100 spaces across the whole of the country in our prison system. That is an abject failure of the last Conservative government.”
Burley then said there had been several occasions when the government had had to release prisoners early.
“The courts still worked then and the police still arrested people then – it’s total hyperbole to say it was a total breakdown of law and order,” she told the minister.
Mahmood replied: “I don’t accept that, and it was the police and other partners in the criminal justice system who were warning the last Conservative government of the necessity for this action and the previous government failed to act.
“With respect, officers and others on the front line disagree with what you’re saying as well. Those are letters that we now know were written by the Met Police chiefs and other police chiefs across the country.”
As the pair shouted over one another, Burley said: “You have seen a letter where the Metropolitan Police chief said we were on the brink of the total breakdown of law and order? Seriously?”
The minister said: “What they warn is the last Conservative government have to act to avert a crisis in the prison system because that is going to have a major impact on policing.
“I’m afraid I simply cannot accept the idea that what is going on now is similar to what happened before. We were at a point of abject crisis in our prisons system.”
Mahmood said the last government “ran the system boiling hot for month and months and months”.
“They knew they had to take action to alleviate that crisis in our prisons and they failed to do that,” she added.
